Sparking Success with Aaron Opalewski

BoltCreativeStrategies | EJ (00:00.11)
Welcome to Sparking Success with Aaron Opalewski. Aaron brings you conversations that spark innovation, cultivate leadership skills, and pave the way for your business success. In each episode, we delve into the dynamic world of business and leadership, exploring strategies, insights, and success stories that fuel your professional journey.

Well, hey everybody. Welcome back to Sparking Success. My name is EJ Swanson. I'm your host here and I'm with Aaron Opeluski, my good friend. Aaron, how are you today, man? Great, EJ. How are you doing, man? I feel great. You know, this morning we had another broadcast. You're on another podcast today and it just spitting out wisdom and sharing with people more on recruiting and the success that you've had throughout that. And I was just thankful to be a part of it. I am excited for the future for that to drop. And

I will put that out, Mark Whitby, recruiting kind of coach consultant, that type of thing. And I'm excited to share that with everybody. But today we're going to be talking about an area of growth for all of us. And as we do that, we're going to talk about feedback loops and how each of us can improve. And I know when we were planning out this episode, one of the things that you were talking about is, EJ, one of our core values is be humble, crave.

improvement and one of the greatest ways to improve is by getting feedback and there's a number of different ways that that can happen a number of different ways that we can see that play out within our organizations that really does lead to success. So today talk to us a little bit about that. How do feedbacks help our feedback loops help us to improve? Well, I think just in general, it starts with like.

We've talked about this in other conversations, like you're looking for characteristics before you're looking for like a core value match. You want the characteristics that lead to a core value match because the core values have to be like taught and you have to guide people along and kind of show them your way. But we all have characteristics, right? So as it relates to feedback loops, right? Well, you got to be coachable to get the most of any kind of like feedback scenario. So.

BoltCreativeStrategies | EJ (02:20.366)
So that's a key characteristic for us right out of the gate. It can be taught, but naturally, some people are more coachable than others. And we like when we find someone that's coachable, that's a key characteristic that they have, right? It's like, OK, we may be able to work with someone that's like a six out of 10 on this, but when we find nine out of 10s, 10 out of 10s, eight out of 10s,

tens in this area and I can even give you my not that it's right, but my definition of like what would what's an eight versus what's a 10. But yeah, that's that's key. Like because like man, we can't really get down this path of giving good feedback and having it hit home and be implemented if you're not coachable. Yeah, you know, and I do want you to share that because I think one of the key things for our hope and our desires, we've talked through this podcast.

is that it's not just theory, these are things that have been practiced. And I think before we get into some of the specifics of feedback loops, tell us how you would rate those. Yeah, well, for me, this like what we just said, it's the number one characteristic that I'm looking for. I also want to gauge someone's like hunger level, in my opinion. But I feel like I can pull more out in a first conversation, like where everyone's on their best behavior. And we all know how to say.

We're hungry or want it. It's okay. Well, your actions are gonna show me a lot about that, too. Yeah. But you can frame a lot of questions out for how coachable someone is like you can kind of pull it out of them. So if you want eight out of 10 would be someone that's open to it to me, that's pretty like wide open to like, like I want to be coached. OK, nine. Probably has a lot of like an interview setting, right? A lot of good, tangible examples of how some kind of coaching.

that they received, help them get better and improved on the line, or help them turn a negative into a positive, right? That's great. And then a 10 out of 10 for me is someone that conveys to you how much they deeply crave for that and are looking for that and want that, and can give you tangible examples of where it's like worked for them. Someone that's like wants to be pushed to the max. It's not enough for someone to just say that to you, because what I found a lot is people...

BoltCreativeStrategies | EJ (04:43.118)
There are people that will say that. But man, is there a clearly defined difference between someone that says that and then backs up the actions to that versus someone that says that because they think that's what they're supposed to say. So they're two different things. Yeah, that's a great definition. And I think that within feedback loops specifically, it really is telling the difference between that interview.

It talks to people's character, right? When they say it. And maybe they're even in that like six, seven, maybe pushing to eight. But but then when they get beyond the interview and you don't see it, that's when that number just plummets. I think for all of us. Right. So so it's it's neat to be able to see when people actually live that out then. Yeah. And it's almost like, well, no one in the interview process to me is going to be ranked as a 10 on that. Yeah. Because.

they could talk a big game, but we're going to find out relatively quick because, you know, coaching moments will come relatively quick. We're going to be able to implement that and see actionable steps to how they how they really feel about that and what they're really wanting. And it's just after doing that so much, you can pick up on things pretty quick on where someone's at with that. So, yeah.

Well, I know that there's a couple of different areas where you've seen this really help improve success, one of those being in projects. Talk to us a little bit about feedback loops within projects. I think as it pertains to our business, and we're two weeks out on our prep for this, so my prep's a little fuzzier. But when you ask me from a project standpoint, what I think of is, OK.

What projects have we taken on or done? And then like the feedback is failure. Like a lot of the times, like there's points of the project that didn't work out or there's inefficiencies that come up. Well, OK, as we're looking at that, like our loop may be just we're able to do that and adjust. It could be we don't get a repeat project. We could lose a project like any of those things could happen. We could deem.

BoltCreativeStrategies | EJ (07:06.574)
hey, we're going at this style project in a certain way, and like, OK, here's what's happening, right? And this is where I see this success come from it. So we're going at this on this type of, for us, a lot of times, like placement style. And it's not working out. We're not converting at the level we want to. OK, well, the feedback loop starts in. Well, why is that? Is it?

Something on the client end is it something on our end we probably should look at those inversely right probably look at ourselves yes, yeah, and then the client but like What is it and it can be like? Like it doesn't have to be one or the other mm -hmm can be both and it almost always is in one of those things it says but like okay What about this didn't work? What about this would we change if we could? and okay if we start to see a repeat on that like if our business development teams

bringing in the same style project, right? And we're looking at what's happening on these projects and we're having similar feedback discussions where it's like, well, this didn't execute well and this isn't going well. Well, you start to see a pattern. OK, well, once we see that pattern, what can we do to adjust? Is this the right service line? Like we've talked about in conversations, we have eight service lines, right?

Well, they came from conversations like this. Not like necessarily in the moment, but over time, as we're doing these feedback sessions on what's working, what isn't, you start to pinpoint what we would do differently or how, like, hey, this wasn't working because of X, Y, or Z. Well, if we were able to adjust this one part of the process, this would go really well. And do you sometimes, and I think I'm hearing you right, is that how you've

than within Spark companies developed new service lines because you've seen the feedback loop and you've said, if we were to do this specifically like this, it would completely revolutionize either the client experience or the candidate experience or how we were developing new business. Is that what you're saying? Correct. You know, because, okay, so let's go back to when we had, at one point we had like two service lines. And...

BoltCreativeStrategies | EJ (09:32.175)
They're amazing, service lines, if the client is set up properly to deploy that type of project into, and a lot are, but also a lot aren't. And so then you get into bad project selection from a business development standpoint, and like man, we're dropping projects in here that really aren't, it's gonna be hard to get them to convert right. Within those loops,

we're able to like, hey, like, this doesn't necessarily have to completely be like you'll hear a lot of people in our industry, like only take good clients, like, I don't disagree with that. But I like to think like there's creative, like, okay, cool, like you're turning away business. Not all business is good business, right? But like, get a little more creative, like, not all business is good business within these service lines. But there's things that you could do.

to add value to these businesses that aren't ready for these service lines, that would be of tremendous value to them. It would be priced more appropriately to where they're at. And you can help develop their internal talent acquisition strategy so that someday they're more ready and set up for these other service lines. So you can. You help the client along in that process. Correct. Now I'll ask that within this. Do you usually find?

at least in your experience, right? How you've built the success. Is it usually that you're going, I don't want to use the word backwards, but is it that you're usually stepping down the service or from experience have you, I guess it could be both as I'm thinking through it, you know, just in the moment, are you stepping up the service? It could be.

It could be either, right? It could be either. In a lot of ways, you might look at doing a smaller focus point of the service that would help them. And I look at that as a step down on, you're just not going to charge as much. That's OK. But to me, OK, if we get that right, we add value. We're able to do some kind of value add for this client. One, we build another fan of the business. And if we're more creative in how we're doing that than trying to.

BoltCreativeStrategies | EJ (11:56.815)
It's not an overcharge in and of itself in this other like area. It's an overcharge because they're not set up for success in that area. Right. And then it's really going to be porn on that, like on the client feeling like they're getting no value out of the situation. Right. Because you are charging at a higher price point and then they're not set up for it to convert well for them long term. And you're just setting yourself up for failure on all ends. Well, that's not a good way to look at how to.

Maximize a lifetime value like a long -term relationship with a client Yeah, think of it with a longer scope of shoot Let's do some other things and we might be able to over a five -year period Really expand what we're able to do with this business as the infrastructure of the business expands

Clients generally appreciate when you say, hey look, let's not spend more money, let's spend less. Now inversely, we've had programs that won't get into specifics, but huge multi -seven figure programs that we weren't able to set up converting on search well, but we've implemented other service lines and then we've scaled that at max capacity.

to where there are huge programs for us. We're talking multi -seven figure programs where it's like, yeah, like at surface level, if we did all of these on placements, it would be a bigger project. But it wasn't netting out. So by going back to the drawing board, we've created some of our biggest one -off programs in these other areas at scale. Yeah. You know, I think a really important part, just to point out to all of you who are listening or watching,

that I'm taking away right now, Aaron, is that there is, you know, I think everybody always thinks of feedback loops as being negative. Almost everything you just said within that led to a positive outcome. And I just want to point that out to everybody because that's where I think the success actually lies, is when you take feedback, right, and as you take that feedback, you then use it for,

BoltCreativeStrategies | EJ (14:11.477)
Improvement because I think what a lot of people do is they get the feedback and then they get stuck for so long Or they get stuck in it and they don't actually do something with the feedback to allow it to move them forward Well, and you just hit it on a key thing there. So one our biggest successes have come from Analyzing our failures and figuring out how to do it different in a different way. That would be better for the client And in some instances better

you know, for, well, ultimately better for us if it's better for the client. Right. Sometimes we're able to look at both sides of that, like we're saying, and figure out the, like, hey, what's the best way that we're uniquely talented to execute on this, right? So there's that. All our, I could take you client by client, you know, area by area, company by company, and show you failures that led to the success of that. And the bigger the failure, the bigger the success on the other side. Yeah. So there's that.

What you said though there, you talked about the timing. The difference, my opinion, the difference between someone that performs on an elite level, an average level, above average level, like what really separates the difference there is how quick your loop is. How quick you adjust to, like the quicker that you can frame in your mind, like one, the more coaching you can take.

just from the standpoint of like, I'm getting more coaching, right? Well, then also the faster you are, maybe faster isn't the right word. It's not so much about being fast. It's about receiving it in a way where like you look at it immediately is like, what can I learn from this? Yeah, how responsive you are, what opportunities are within this this challenge? What's great about this problem? Like, I'll get there in seconds. Doesn't mean that I don't.

doesn't mean that you're walking around with a smile like, oh man, this horrible thing just happened, or we didn't win this project, or this client didn't renew, or whatever it is. OK, we're all human. That's not fun. But immediately, what can we learn? Almost immediately. And so elite performers, you look at sports as a great example. Cornerbacks, quarterbacks, a quarterback throws an interception. Will they consult? Or they can just go?

BoltCreativeStrategies | EJ (16:33.743)
right up in next play. Yeah. And all the elite performers have something in common. Very short memories. Either way, success or failure. It's next play. Yeah, that's good. It's back looking at film on the sideline. Not a month later. Right. Not the next year. Yeah. Like what happens a business seconds after they make the mistake. They're on the iPad, you know, or whatever it is. Right. They're looking at it and they're evaluating it. And what happens?

For everyone in sports like what really separates great coaching great teams is the adjustments made at halftime. Hmm. See a lot of teams that start out hot. And then at halftime there's adjustments made. Yep. And you know what was working. Doesn't work anymore. It's a little painful to talk about still, but look no farther and I'm not knocking the Lions coaches. I knew we were going to go there. Justments at halftime in that game and it clearly went another direction. Yeah.

You know, some bounces didn't go their way either. But the point is quick adjustments. Yeah. Compared to you think about it. What do you see? You see like, oh, like the New Year's New Me posts. And it's just like, man, you're not you're not there's a reason you're posting that every year. It's because like you're tricking yourself that you need to wait till the night. Like, you know, like you should do that within seconds. Right. Like it's OK. We make mistakes. No one's perfect. We're all going to.

have like we're all gonna mess up. Well the quicker we can kind of adjust and learn from those the better and then it's not bad if we're doing that because we're probably pushing ourselves too. We're probably outside of our comfort zone or trying to grow. Mistakes will happen within that but how quickly can we evaluate and learn from them? Yeah that's great. You know being an entrepreneur, a business leader, even a leader within your business,

One of the things that always comes up specifically at that leadership level for most leaders, and I'm sure most of the people who are watching the podcast today, is the feedback loop around ideation or when new ideas or when ideas need to change. And it's a different setting, I think, than it being project -based, because usually there's dreaming involved in that, there's new planning, or there has been something that...

BoltCreativeStrategies | EJ (18:57.993)
really specifically isn't working. When ideas come up, why is feedback so important to you as a leader? Well, I think ideas in general, you want, you know, I like the saying like best idea wins. It doesn't matter who it comes from, but best idea wins. And this is going to sound maybe like counter to that, right? At the same time,

You do gotta evaluate where the idea is coming from, what their track record is, what they know about the situation, what you already know about this. It is best idea wins, but you do gotta take into context who's bringing the idea and run that through kind of a different assessment, right? So if it's someone that's talking completely in theory compared to someone that's maybe done this thing multiple times, I'm gonna...

Lean more towards I'm going to listen to both because new people can bring fresh ideas. Well. They also maybe bring something up that you've already tried and and know you've already tackled and yeah well this person that maybe achieve some of these things at certain levels or in certain scenarios. I'm going to listen up more. I think you should listen to both, but like I can't just say like oh that sounds great in theory.

Let me just trust that blindly. Whereas the person that's done it before, if they can walk through why that's a good idea or how that would, if they can communicate that well and like, hey, we're doing it like this. You know, we had a team and they were, you know, at this level and we're trying to get them to hear, same thing that we're doing right now. Here's something that we did that I see we're not doing and I think it would work really well and here's why. I'm gonna listen, like that's like a light bulb thing. Like let's talk more about that.

because they're talking from it's actually happened before. The more it's theory related, doesn't mean it's a bad idea. But you've got to run that through second and third order consequences. Because things can sound good in theory, but it's all in execution. Yeah. When you have, over the years, found yourself finding that success within ideation and within the team setting,

BoltCreativeStrategies | EJ (21:26.991)
Do you find, Aaron, that it's harder to...

to promote other people's ideas as the feedback comes? Like, is it harder for you to give the feedback that that's not a good idea? Or is it easier for you within the feedback to shut it down?

BoltCreativeStrategies | EJ (21:52.399)
So.

I don't know that I deploy this perfectly although I know I don't deploy this perfectly all the time. But you know big thing that I it depends to like let's say you have you're in a brainstorming meeting around something that you need to do within like one of our business units right. Okay. What I want to do is okay we might have a time where we hear from everybody or select people or whatever.

Ultimately, the business unit leader, I want to make sure we hear from them and what they think. As much as I can.

BoltCreativeStrategies | EJ (22:34.863)
Not in a tricky way, right? But like I want to try and go with their idea as much as we can. Sure. Now, if it's off the rails, we're going to talk about why that might be off the rails. If I think it's not the best way, but it could work and they're running the project. Yep. We're probably going to try that first.

And you'll just put the boundaries around it to put. We might. Yeah, we might talk about some other things and say hey like over X timeline. If this goes, you know, try and put some measurement points around it that we can actually like look at data and say is this working or is it not? Hey like. You're running this team. You believe in this. You've stated your reasons why. It makes sense. Here's some concerns to that. I'm open to do it like it's your it's your team.

Yeah, you're telling me this is the way to do it. I could see that working If it if it doesn't work, you know If we can't hit this measurement point by this date across this measurement point by this date Would you be open to acts? Okay, so so you almost Is that help in evaluating the risk within that I think you know Here's what I If I was giving myself

over the last, let's call it the last 10 years, since Sparks been in effect.

A lot of times I'm talking more than I'm listening, at least up to the last couple years. Talking more than I'm listening and coming up with the ideas. I still struggle with this in areas because there's areas that I just feel like I know more about than other people within the service lines and operationally and stuff like that. And if anything, that's not a pat on the back. That's a failure in leadership at this point to deploy some of that knowledge out quicker.

BoltCreativeStrategies | EJ (24:35.695)
Okay, so if anything, that's a negative mark on me on how fast I've been able to deploy some of that knowledge, even though like look no farther than it's like, hey, if you ask the executives at talent, what's the last book that you read? Like, for work, you know, they all just read an operational staffing book that talks about movement of styles of business and not like and there's like, I'm trying to, we're working towards developing and

Deploying that knowledge and then we're talking about that like so it's not just coming in our every day I'm having them read on it, too Okay, this is hitting from two angles and I for me that resonates more like when I know of something and Then I'm also reading about it. It kind of I'm like, okay that like yeah I see where we're missing on that or I see where we've done great with that or you get what I'm saying Yeah, I do. You know, I and I think that that's that's really important as we

We strive for that success is that we have the opportunity to then look for those different moments where not only can we gather the feedback, we can get the feedback and we look at it from other areas as well. So where I think I made mistakes though with this is look like if someone else is like, let's say I think my, of course we all think our ideas are the best. Yeah. And I like.

I know that's definitely not the case because a lot of the things that are ideas that I have haven't worked or good idea wrong time or good idea not executed properly. If you don't get that part right, it doesn't matter. Yeah, but that idea was. Yep. But like, hey, this other idea that the person that's going to be doing a lot of like that was like five, 10 percent off of yours, like in your mind.

Well, it makes no freaking sense at all to me now. It did them, but now it doesn't. For me to like twist their arm and say, look, let's do this. Well, if we're really close, I'm going to frame it out that way. Let's go with their idea. If I think it may dent the car or slow us down in the short term. One, I'm wrong a lot, so I could be wrong. Sure. Two, they're running it right, like.

BoltCreativeStrategies | EJ (27:00.431)
when they're getting to run with their idea, they're more likely to execute it well. So as long as it doesn't cross up our strategies, styles, like if I'm not crossing these sectors, service lines, there's things that I don't want to try and violate. But if they want to do something and it's a little bit different than I was thinking and it's their area to run.

10 out of 10 times now, we're gonna go with that first. And what's probably gonna happen in that conversation is there's a talking point of, hey, a measurement time period, we're evaluating the soft data, not just feelings. We're talking about it in meetings that we have structured, whether that be one -on -ones or leadership meetings or whatever it is. And if something doesn't work, hey, we're gonna go, then we're gonna try this idea.

You know, I want to in a second, I want to talk about feedback loops within execution. But you just made me think of something when you talked about feelings. Because I think one of the roadblocks to feedback loops for both leaders getting feedback and leaders giving feedback is feelings. How should we as leaders navigate?

If you're dealing with the 10 or 9 and 8 like it depends Okay, that's part of what makes it a 10 the delivery doesn't matter at all. It doesn't They can they can chew it up and take it very little. I'm not gonna say I'm not saying not at all and I have to be careful with that because I've abused that

Because for my coaches or mentors, I just hit me with it. And I look back to sports and stuff like that, and it was that style feedback. Not buying closed doors while you're out on the court, and you're getting screamed at. Or you're pulled off to the bench and you get screamed at right there. And that was the first time I ever

BoltCreativeStrategies | EJ (29:13.583)
That was really tough for me, but good for me at the same time. It was both. Yeah.

And if you're going to be elite, you just don't care. But I don't think anyone loves to be chewed out, or they're not going to receive that well all the time, right? So I would say if you're truly dealing with a 10, you get a free pass on this for the most part.

The problem with that is not everyone's gonna be a 10 out of 10 on this. If you're gonna grow a team or be a leader that makes an impact, you gotta have more in your game than just that all go. And even within that, for me, I've had people that think they're that or tell me they're that, and I gotta watch it with that because there's been plenty of times where it's like,

Like I can tell that I've dinged them. And if anything, that's slowing down. And we've worked through those things, right? But I've dinged them. And it's like, hey, so my preference now would be, you you can give this, like you want to get good at delivering the feedback in a clear, concise, direct way, but calm, caring, with empathy.

You know if you lead with those things and do it that way and the better you ask questions Man, that's where you really stepped your game up on this, you know Yes, you can get away with it at the the top of the top Yeah, but even like look at I don't know the situation but you look at Tom Brady and Bill Belichick I think their relationship was like that. Mm -hmm, but after and this took years, but like got to the point where it was I think like like that I

BoltCreativeStrategies | EJ (31:08.015)
Yeah, they couldn't do it anymore. enough of it. Yeah. So even, I don't think that there's anyone that you want to do that all the time. Right. And for a lot, I think you're just a lot better if you're good at leading with empathy on it, asking good questions.

being calm, you know, and concise in what you're saying and not getting emotional about it. Like if you do get emotional about it, it's important to do your best to explain. It's because of how much you care about them. You care about what you're doing. You care about like, but even that is somewhat like, man, you just got to work on that stuff. If you're going to get through to people, if you come in empathetic, if you come in, uh...

calm in this situation and if you ask more questions than you do just like give them directives. The conversation might take a little bit longer but the damage you do in those conversations the other way like that's the the thing about the scenario where it's like we try someone else's way. So we try it for three months doesn't work out and then maybe we try you know a way that I thought was better.

Well, if I just steamroll them and say, we're doing this way, one, my way is more likely to fail because they're not going to be as gung -ho about implementing it. Six months out, it might fail. Yeah. Well, we go through the same six month timeline and their way doesn't work. And then we come back and say, and I ask good questions around, hey, this hasn't worked. We talked about, this is another option.

X, Y, and Z have happened in this process, and these are things that I thought...

BoltCreativeStrategies | EJ (32:56.079)
might make this other way a way that we'd get more out of the situation or we'd be farther ahead. What are your thoughts on that now? They're most likely going to be more open minded if we're looking at if we have good clear data points and they're seeing it's not working, they're gonna be more open minded trying it that way. Yes, it took another 90 days to deploy it, but it's more likely at six months that that actually works because they're more open minded to it than if I just steamroll them and we do it out of the gate.

six months, like I'm more likely to get the result that ultimately we want so I got to think about things in the long term. Yeah you know I think over the years as I've had the opportunity to be both in the the feedback you know loops or in the ideation in the project base stuff one of the things that I've had to learn and this is just me as a leader is that

I need to make sure I basically like cleared the air before I go into a specific like feedback loop session, right? So if I've found myself going into a meeting where it's like, okay, this isn't working, this.

this hasn't been working, but I have a little bit of like angst with that person and then we start talking feedback. I usually give it to them a lot harder than probably they deserve, right? And you look at those things, I find it really interesting about, you know, the tens. So I'm gonna ask a different question, but even before we go to execution. How do you help?

people growing in receiving the feedback. Is it just time? It can be, but back to the more time. So we have some.

BoltCreativeStrategies | EJ (34:54.863)
I mean, we're talking people that have hit five, six contests with us. And so the time aspect to this is over time, I think you're able to show them through some of their successes, if they're late adapters on things, or when they picked it up and it worked for them. And the conversation starts to be, I mean, this is like, man, you know.

You have so much potential. You've done all these great things and look at some of these areas where you're grown and just, you know, think about if you would have implemented that like right when you heard it, how even farther you would be along. Yeah. And like I know that isn't a natural thing for you or whatever, but like it's like, man, it's work. You have the ability. It's worked when you have and you have the ability to become elite.

And the only thing that holds you back from being elite is this time frame that is self -inflicted by you on adapting certain things, on being a slow adapter. Does that mean they're going to necessarily flip it overnight? No, but I think over time, and as you're building a track record, as they're building their own track record, and you guys are building a track record together of trust, a relationship, they're seeing things work.

it starts to click. Yeah. Well, the faster that is, like so part of that is trust. You so like you build, the faster you can build a trust, you know, a trusting relationship with someone, which I think you do through building a track record. Well, like I think that can help speed up that curve. Some people are more naturally inclined or they can look at a track record and get on board with it quicker than others.

Some are just better in that area on being like early adapters. Man, it's working for this person. Why wouldn't I listen and do this and go above and beyond even more? Like if this is the blueprint, crank it up a little bit more, I'll get there even faster. I believe that's a good mindset to be in as much as you can be in. You do gotta, those people also need to be careful with what they adapt. Like, okay.

BoltCreativeStrategies | EJ (37:10.383)
You can be an early adapter and if you start taking advice from someone that maybe shouldn't be that could also hurt you. So so I think but within the framework specifically of like the example I give like shoot like you know we've.

have some people that have worked for the company now for a decade, nine years, eight years, seven years. Well, like, man, those are really good. Like, if someone's seen some of that and they've come along, like, that's really probably one of my main pushes or challenges to them is like.

Be open -minded faster on this. Yeah. You've got all the talent to do anything we do within this. And if I don't think it's a good area for them, right, or maybe it's not within their unique gifts, well, I just wouldn't push it.

But if they're capable in this area and it's holding them back from being the best version of themselves from growing, which is the purpose of our company, right? Well, OK, it's my obligation to figure out how to communicate this. And I like going that route because, man, when I can point to their own successes or, you know.

Hopefully stories of others, but for some of them, like someone that's a slow adapter, the more I can point to their own successes. And I was like, man, you really fought on this for X amount of time, and now you're awesome in this area. And look at how much that's helped you grow. Well, I'm trying to get that light bulb to go off faster and faster. And do you think where?

BoltCreativeStrategies | EJ (38:43.215)
where or when people take that quicker. That's when within execution, that's where feedback loops really start to expand. They really start to like take hold and help you to grow exponentially. Is it the speed? I think that's a part of it. Yeah. Because you can't do projects without.

individuals and then groups of individuals with our teams, you know, so I think that's definitely part of it. So, you know, another thing like we don't like we're framing it as a feedback loop, but we don't call any of our meetings feedback loops or anything like we just it's just naturally ingrained in our meetings that we should be talking through what's going on and.

If there's coaching moments within a discussion, they should come up. Same thing with recognition, right? Yeah. Should be happy on that. Where it's deserved, it should be acknowledged. Probably that's why, in my opinion, would be, well, we're going to provide a lot of coaching moments.

Yes, some of those are going to have recognition within them where we're doing great. Absolutely want to recognize people where they're doing well and where I've really kind of come into a good relationship with someone is we're in the same conversation. I can give them kudos over here. Yep. And and this is one of the hardest thing for people that like come in and like.

if they start reporting to me and they haven't, or they're new to the organization specifically. And it's like, well, wait a minute. We're in the same convo, and you just told me great job on this. And then you basically really kind of challenged me over here. Yeah. Or I would frame a lot of times like, hey, I'm disappointed in how this is going. Right? And then explain why. They're looking at me like, well, what? You just like, well, yeah. Like, both I.

BoltCreativeStrategies | EJ (40:39.855)
It's not like you do one thing wrong and it means you're doing horrible on everything. But it's not like you do one thing right. And everything wins. And great on everything. And this is an area where people, myself included, but with our operators that I work with, not every one of them, but one of the things I have to work on with people is how they recognize people. OK. It's like.

great job. You're doing such a great job and it's just on just that right? Interesting. Well and I'm not gonna name names or anything but they just leave it at that. Well what do they do a great job on? Because I've been like hey give me some deets. Like because we'll look at data points you know numbers that we have. It's like man where's this person have you have a serious discussion with this person? Mm -hmm. They're not performing well.

That's right. These are real life conversations. Not a ton, but this is an example. Well, how am I supposed to talk to them about this? I just told them how great of a job they're doing. OK. Well, they did a really good job on this. Awesome. Yeah. So you just told them great job, right? Yeah.

Well, and so now you feel weird about going back to them and tell them they're they're not performing well overall. Yeah, I do. Well, okay. This is a good learning lesson. Mm hmm. I love it that you're looking for ways to recognize and encourage and, you know, be an encourager of people like so important. So important. Let's acknowledge what they're doing well. But you got to be more specific in that area. Right? Like what did they do well?

What do you want them to do more of? What do they need to continue? Yeah, I think, you know, I don't know where I learned this, Aaron, but over the years I've heard people, I think they call it like the benefit sandwich or something like that, right? Where you like, you start off with the good thing. And maybe this is a tip for somebody who's struggling with giving that feedback like you're talking about, right? They start off with the good. You give the, you know, like, hey, we need correction here. Or as you just said,

BoltCreativeStrategies | EJ (43:02.767)
you know, I'm disappointed in how this is going. If you can't ever get to that disappointment or the, hey, here's the hard feedback that I need to give you. I had to for a number of years. I couldn't just leave it at those two. I always had to put like the other side of the bread on it and then wrap it back up with the good. I don't think that has to happen all the time. And I think as you're looking for tens, you don't have to do that.

But I think if people are struggling with that, when I say that, what's your thought on that? Like the good, the bad, the good? Does it just make it soft? The sandwich method, I don't think it's a bad thing to do. It needs to be genuine. Yeah. Right? And you got to need to know your people. Some people don't like, like if you're doing that every single time, like is it genuine? Are you doing it to use that method? Yeah. So in...

I love that we're not in like a quick 60 second context on this stuff, right? We can actually talk about it. So I think that's a great tool to make sure you're recognizing people and you can use that tool. I think it's a good thing to think about, but it should be genuine. It should never be like, oh, I gotta come up with two positive things because I'm stacking this thing in the middle. And then you got to know your people because, you know, some people will be like, just tell me you got to tell me. Yeah.

And so you got to watch it. So I do that, you know, sure. Within within with some people with some people, I don't. My favorite thing to do is just to always be on the lookout to give people recognition on something they do well and hopefully put enough deposits in where when I need to, you know, talk to them about something that maybe is going to be a tougher conversation.

that they know that like, OK, well, you know, he's he recommends he knows I do some good stuff. Right. Yeah, it's already there. What I'll do sometimes, specifically if like I'm still building my relationship with the person. A lot of times, like within the like. If I know I've given them good feedback or, you know, this is kind of the sandwich method, but not maybe as formal like.

BoltCreativeStrategies | EJ (45:29.551)
I might be giving them this coaching moment that is is tougher feedback. And I'm then going back to something that maybe I recognize and then I say like, we need more of this from you. Because when you do this, you know, this happens and this happens. I like that. This is how you know, so I understand this is why you know, there's issues with this or this needs to be adjusted. But this is perfect. You need to do this needs to become your standard. You need to do this more you need. You know, this is the

An example of you doing this well and here's an example of you doing it in an unacceptable manner. So like it's in you. You need to work on your consistency, your discipline within it, your commitment to it, your understanding of how this impacts the team or client or you or all the above like so. I think within that you're you know you find your ways to acknowledge what they're doing well. And the more the better you get at that.

But also, the better you get at being specific with it. Because when people just say, you're doing a great job, you're setting the person up for confusion or yourself to just not do it. Because it's like, I just told them. Yeah, you're doing a great job on x. You're not doing a great job on y. We need to do more of x, less of y. That's really paraphrased at that point. Yeah, yeah. No, that's good.

As we land the plane on this episode, what would you say for you within feedback loops and them helping us as leaders? How would you sum up your takeaways? Is that your biggest successes are going to come from working through that stuff, right? So whether it's you, your people, your clients, like just like.

I really enjoy the book, The Motive, on this topic by Patrick LeCione, because it talks about conflicts a part of a leader's role. And so just accepting that and getting really good at recognition so that I'm not just only coming into conflict with people all the time, but not shying away from it and not doing it in a way that gets

BoltCreativeStrategies | EJ (47:58.223)
You know, the more we can talk like just this, and I can address some things and just do it with the right demeanor, man, it just becomes more impactful. So it's just learning how to use and flex that muscle and getting better at it. The quicker you do it and the quicker that you can tie it back to like, Hey, like we're doing this so that we all improve. Right. I want you to improve. I want to see you get on the other side of this.

Hey, I've had this conversation.

careful with this, right? But like, if I'm having a conversation, and I know I've had it with a bunch of other people, if they happen to be some of our executives or multi contest winners, like, I'm going to use them by name within the conversation if I can. Now, if it's, I'm doing it because it's not an embarrassing thing, because I can, I'm planning a picture of how this has turned into massive success. Right. And that this is normal. Yep. Like, dude, this is a...

growth conversation. Yeah, had this conversation and rattle off 10 different people. Mm hmm. Like that's a luxury of the track like using the track record to build trust and saying like, look, this is just it's okay. Yeah, but this is something that we got to improve. Guess who I had this similar conversation with every single one of my direct reports right now. Yeah, a lot of times that's that's how Yeah, and

So for me, I just think stuff like that's impactful because it starts to paint the picture of like, OK, this is just a part like this is not Aaron's mad at me or this person like, no, this is a part of the process. I'm getting better. And we just got to embrace this stuff. And the faster we embrace it, the quicker we have the it doesn't necessarily mean the quicker will improve, but it puts us in the position to improve quicker. That's great. Well, I think that.

BoltCreativeStrategies | EJ (49:55.759)
you know, finding feedback loops, asking for feedback loops, whether it be in projects, it be in ideas, it be in execution, is a key to all of us as leaders. And as we do that, I know that, you know, that's part of what you want people to hear as they grow. And it's led to a ton of your success.

Today as you're listening, maybe you want to talk more about this with Aaron. You can dive into all of his socials. It's Aaron Opeluski at Aaron Opeluski. You can find more episodes that we've talked in different avenues of this. I think back to a number of the different episodes that we've already done that this can provide relevance within and how to then execute against those feedback loops.

Within that if you are listening today, please take a moment like subscribe our podcast We want to continue to help you grow and to spark success for each and every one of you Aaron Thanks for your time today. Thanks for sharing some wisdom with us. Thanks